Archives: #selfpublishing

My Recent Chat with the Canvas Rebel

In September 2024, I connected with an online magazine called CANVAS REBEL, and I have shared our conversation below. The mission of the CR is to create a space for artists, creatives and entrepreneurs to be able to learn from their peers through the magic and power of storytelling. It was a fun interview, and I hope you enjoy reading it. It’s copied below, but you can also find it here with this LINK: https://canvasrebel.com/meet-cathey-nickell/

CR: Cathey, thanks for taking the time to share your stories with us today Let’s start with a story that highlights an important way in which your brand diverges from the industry standard.

CATHEY: I’m a children’s book author, and my two picture books are “Arthur Zarr’s Amazing Art Car†and “Yazzy’s Amazing Yarn.†Many authors, myself included, go into elementary schools and speak to students about writing, reading, and inspiration as part of our promotional work and overall mission. I diverge from the industry standard by bringing a real ART CAR along for the students to see, touch, and experience! In case you don’t know what an art car is, they are vehicles that have had their appearance imaginatively modified as an act of personal artistic expression. You might turn your car into a hippo or zebra; you might glue fake fur all over it; or maybe you’d like to cover it in painted dragonflies, paisleys, or bumblebees. I live in Houston, Texas, and we are considered the “art car capital of the world,†as evidenced by our having more art cars (estimated at 60 or more) than any other city. We also have an annual art car parade that attracts over 200 vehicles from around the country. These mobile works of art are what inspired my first picture book, “Arthur Zarr’s Amazing Art Car,†and I love introducing them to kids.

A fun fact is that art cars are not only driven in the parade; most are owned by daily drivers, which means it’s their only means of transportation—every day, everywhere they go, year-round. When I launched my book, I didn’t initially think about inviting an art car to join me at my appearances and school visits. I had an “aha moment†one day, however, and the rest is history. The Houston art car community has embraced my story with enthusiasm and continues to be supportive of my message for young readers. At my author visits, the children hear me speak first, where I give a fun presentation about writing, publishing, and creativity; then they go outside and see a decorated art car and can ask the driver questions as well. It’s a truly interactive school Author Visit!

CR: Awesome. So, before we get into the rest of our questions, can you briefly introduce yourself to our readers?

CATHEY: A few decades ago, way back in 1998, I moved from Louisiana to Texas, and it was the first time I’d lived in a city as large and diverse as Houston. Driving around our busy roads, I’d occasionally spot a decorated vehicle that seemed different, unique, or out of the ordinary. I think the first one I saw was a Volkswagen van covered in psychedelic colors with painted portraits of The Beatles; another early sighting was a car with plastic green Army men glued all over it. I asked around and learned that I’d had an art car sighting, and my interest in these whimsical creations grew from there. One day, out of the blue, I had an idea to write a kid’s book about a man who decides to create an art car and makes friends along the way. I’ve always been a writer, therefore, I tend to express myself creatively through words on a page; so, while I could’ve built my own actual art car, I instead wrote a story about it for children.

My background as a journalist and public relations professional gave me the experience and tools to know how to proceed, and I decided to self-publish “Arthur Zarr’s Amazing Art Car.†I joined the Society of Children’s Book Writers and Illustrators (SCBWI) and the Independent Book Publishers Association (IBPA), and I learned a lot by attending their in-person conferences, taking online workshops, and reading their industry magazines. As a sole proprietor, I started my own publishing company and named it Twenty-Eight Creative. In case you’re wondering, 28 is a playful nod to my last name—Nickel(l) is the 28th element on the chemistry periodic table. And no, I’m certainly not a chemist, but a lot of ingredients must come together in the creative process! I do my own writing, but I hire out the work I need help with, such as illustration, graphic design, and copy editing.

When my book launched in 2016, I knew I needed to find an avenue to sell copies that would go beyond indie bookstores, small gift shops, and Amazon. Through research, I discovered that many authors of children’s literature speak at elementary schools, and I knew this could provide another avenue for sales. I developed a presentation called “Amazing Book Ideas,†and I hit the pavement. Well, I actually hit the keyboard, because I started out by emailing school librarians and delivering a pitch. I soon booked my first talk, and I guess I did a good job, because that librarian recommended me to another school, and my public speaking took off from there. Three years later, in 2019, I published a second book, “Yazzy’s Amazing Yarn,†and the popularity of my school author visits has continued to grow. To date, I’ve been invited to more than 150 schools to speak to students. I average about twenty gigs per year, and schools pay me a speaker fee plus circulate a book pre-order form to parents and teachers, which gives me a path for book sales. And while I do enjoy selling books, I mostly love meeting children in person, and I’m hopefully inspiring them to someday write their own stories. That’s the real reward: encouraging young readers and writers.

As for my “brand,†that developed over time during my first few years as a published author. When I launched my book, I knew I would need a quick, fun way to autograph it. Because of the title and theme of Arthur Zarr (who, by the way, is a made-up character), I decided to sign everything with these two words: Be Amazing! One day, during a book signing at a small-town Texas public library, a girl who was probably around ten years old bought my book, and I autographed it with my usual flare. As she walked away from my table, I overheard her whisper to her best friend, “Oh my gosh, she signed it, ‘be amazing’.†Seeing the joy on her face, triggered by a few simple words on my part, brought it all together for me. In that moment, I knew my brand was based on the phrase, “Be Amazing!†And that’s my message to kids: You’re amazing, and you have an amazing mind, so go out there and do as many creative things as possible.

CR: Can you open up about how you funded your business?

CATHEY: My husband, Kevin, and I have a saying, or a mantra: Invest in yourself. For Kevin, who is a doctor, this might mean, for example, purchasing stocks in the field that he knows and understands best: science and medicine. Or, he might invest in a startup that has a new development in his particular niche of urology.

For me as a writer, “invest in yourself†means advancing my creative ideas. When I decided to create and publish my own children’s book, it meant making an investment in my idea . . . in myself. To write a book, you actually don’t need a lot of equipment. You could start with a pen and paper; an old-fashioned typewriter; a voice recorder; an app on your cell phone; or a laptop computer or tablet. I decided to go for the lightweight Mac Air, so that purchase was my first step in investing in myself.

Once you’ve written a story, whether it be a short picture book or a long novel, there are many ways to publish your creation. To break it down into an easy explanation, the two “main†ways are to either pursue a traditional publishing route (which requires getting a literary agent to sign you on) or an indie route (the DIY version of publishing). Since my first book had a local/regional appeal in Houston due to its art car theme, I felt self-publishing (DIY!) would be my best path. As such, I pulled the initial funds I needed from my personal savings, and I invested in myself!

I hired a copy editor to proofread my story. I hired a professional illustrator to draw the pictures and bring my words to life. I hired a printing company to print and bind my books, which were then shipped directly to me. I paid for marketing materials: bookmarks, flyers, and posters. And then, I started selling. It took a few months to sell enough books to hit my break-even point and earn back that investment; eventually, I had sold out of my initial supply and needed a second printing of “Arthur Zarr’s Amazing Art Carâ€; I also produced a second book, “Yazzy’s Amazing Yarn.†It was a risk that paid off for me. I invested in myself.

CR: What do you think is the goal or mission that drives your creative journey?

CATHEY: I love to write. Letters turn into words; the words create sentences; those sentences become paragraphs. I know it sounds rather basic, but when it all comes together, it feels like magic to me. When I go into schools and see the children’s eager faces sitting in the audience, I know WHY I am a writer. Some of the students are often holding their own “books†(homemade, wrinkled, stapled-together pages) that they can’t wait to show me. I’m thrilled every time I hear a child say, “You’ve inspired me to go home and write a story.â€

That’s been my mission from the beginning. In fact, I wrote this down when I drew up an early business plan at the start of my venture: My mission is to develop books and other artistic products as a way to entertain, inspire and delight children of all ages, with an emphasis on wholesome, high quality, one-of-a-kind originality. That’s it. Pretty straightforward.

Contact Info:

• Website: https://www.catheynickell.com/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/catheynickell
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catheynickellauthor

I was featured in the IBPA Member Spotlight

Hi all! I’ve been a member of the Independent Book Publishers Association (IBPA) for several years, and the online magazine recently featured me in their Member Spotlight. I’ll post the Aug. 6, 2024 interview, by journalist Adeline Lui, here! Thank you, IBPA for a wonderful article.

ART CARS + SCHOOL VISITS = A FORMULA FOR SUCCESS AS A SCHOOL SPEAKER

IBPA member Cathey Nickell is an author-publisher who’s also found success as a paid speaker in her home state of Texas, having earned the nickname “The Art Car Lady†and repeat invitations to speak at schools about creative writing and about her book, Arthur Zarr’s Amazing Art Car.

She has presented at over 100 elementary schools, bookstores, and children’s museums, and each event comes with the opportunity to sell her books. Key to her popularity and uniqueness is that she brings a real art car with her to each of her talks. IBPA sat down with Cathey to tell us what is an art car, and share her tips on booking speaking engagements, speaker fees, and selling through schools.

IBPA: What was your inspiration to write your book, Arthur Zarr’s Amazing Art Car? And oh, what is an art car by the way?

Cathey: Art cars are vehicles that have had their appearance imaginatively modified as an act of personal artistic expression. You might turn your car into a hippo or zebra; you might glue fake fur all over it; or maybe you’d like to cover it in painted dragonflies, paisleys, or bumblebees! I live in Houston, Texas, and we are considered the “art car capital of the world,” as evidenced by our having more art cars, estimated at 60 or more, than any other city. We also have an annual art car parade that attracts over 200 vehicles from around the country. These mobile works of art are what inspired my first picture book, Arthur Zarr’s Amazing Art Car. A fun fact is that art cars are not only driven in the parade; most are owned by daily drivers, which means it’s their only means of transportation—every day, everywhere they go, year-round.

IBPA: Cathey, you’ve told us that when approaching schools, it’s good to have a “hook.†And yours happens to be an art car…!

Cathey: When I launched my book, I didn’t initially think about inviting an art car to join me at my appearances and school visits. I had an “aha moment†one day, however, and the rest is history. The Houston art car community has embraced my story with enthusiasm and continues to be supportive of my message for kids. At my author visits, the children hear me speak first, where I give a fun presentation about writing, publishing, and creativity; then they go outside and see, touch, feel, experience a decorated art car and can ask the driver questions as well.

IBPA: You make 20-plus school visits each year. What do you speak about in your presentation, titled “Amazing Book Ideas. Where do They Come From?”?

Cathey: My book is about creativity, outsider art, thinking outside the box, and turning the ordinary into extraordinary. I give students ideas about how they can come up with their own stories, writing tips, messages about creating a full story arc, along with “insider secrets†about my book. Hint: my dog is illustrated on some of the pages. And, of course, I show them photos of art cars to pique their interest. The teachers and staff—and even the principals—seem to have fun too, because art cars bring out the child in all of us. My local moniker as the “Art Car Lady†makes me laugh a bit, because I don’t even own an art car myself. Not yet, anyway!

IBPA: What else accompanies your author visits?

Cathey: When I schedule a visit with a school, one of the first things I do is ask them to circulate my book pre-order form. They’re usually happy and willing to do this, and it allows parents to purchase an autographed and personalized book for their child. I also offer to pre-work with the school’s art teacher, giving them ideas as to how to incorporate my book’s theme into their art curriculum. I email teachers a few line art drawings of plain cars so that students can use their imagination to design their own inventive art cars. And finally, I order bookmarks in bulk from an online vendor, and I bring each child a free one, whether they order a book or not. In each situation, I try to give the school any help they need in advance, so that together we can deliver a successful author visit.

IBPA: Can you share some tips about author fees. How do you know if, or what, to ask?

Cathey: First of all, I believe authors should be paid to speak about their craft. We give our personal time and expertise, and a lot of work goes into each appearance. I’ll admit, I was initially nervous to give a public presentation and ask to be paid. A librarian friend encouraged me, however, and I visited her school at no charge as a way to practice my speaking skills and learn the ropes. After that first visit, I was hooked, and I started booking paid visits from that point on. As for what amount to charge, I asked a few school librarians and other author friends what the “going rate†was. I got a wide variety of answers: ranging from $250 to $1,200…or more! I decided to set my rates low at first, and as I gained experience, I raised them to where they are now, which is somewhere in the middle of the range I mentioned. The way I ask is … to just ask! I mention my fees up front in the very first email contact I make with the school so that they never feel misled or confused. By the way, I highly recommend joining a very helpful, private Facebook group called “Create Engaging School Visits.â€

IBPA: You’ve published another book titled Yazzy’s Amazing Yarn. What’s next for you?

Cathey: I am proud of my two self-published picture books, but I also have a personal goal of trying to enter the traditional publishing world. I’m now writing fiction middle-grade novels, which are for children ages eight to 12. I’ve completed one called A Night Without Light, and that manuscript helped me sign with my agent, Keely Boeving of WordServe Literary. So far, that first novel is still out on submission, but if we are unable to find a publisher for it, I might go the indie route again. Also, I’ve drafted another middle-grade novel with the working title of Ghost Zoo; I hope to have that one in my agent’s hands by the end of summer, and she’ll then take it out on submission as well. Whatever publication route ends up working best for me, I want to continue to stretch my imagination and improve my craft.

IBPA: Thank you so much Cathey for sharing your great advice with IBPA’s members. All the best to you!

About the Independent Book Publishers Association (IBPA): Founded in 1983 to support independent publishers nationwide, the Independent Book Publishers Association (IBPA) leads and serves the independent publishing community through advocacy, education, and tools for success. With over 3,500 members, IBPA is the largest publishing association in the U.S. Its vision is a world where every independent publisher has the access, knowledge, and tools needed to professionally engage in all aspects of an inclusive publishing industry. For more information, visit ibpa-online.org.

An Amazing Book Review & Why This Matters

Lone Star Literary Life is a superb organization I discovered while producing and marketing my new children’s picture book, Arthur Zarr’s Amazing Art Car. This group connects readers with Texas writers and Texas books. I recently submitted my book to them for a review, and what I got in return is wonderful.  CLICK HERE TO READ THE FULL REVIEW BY LONE STAR LITERARY LIFE.  It was published in their Jan. 31, 2016 online newsletter, and I’ll clarify that I paid for this professional review. Some people don’t even realize paid reviews exist, but they do! It’s not always recommended for self-publishers, but in this case, it was part of my specific marketing plan. I was delighted that they praised my illustrator, Bill Megenhardt, for his original, crosshatched, hand-drawn technique.

“Mr. Zarr grows from his grisaille existence into a citizen of a diverse, polychromed neighborhood.” – Lone Star Literary Life book review.

READER REVIEWS ARE IMPORTANT. Why? I’ve been researching this topic for a long time, and here’s what I’ve learned. For all authors—but especially for indie authors like myself—reader reviews are vital to the success of our books. I’m not talking about paid reviews; I’m referring to a non-paid review from someone who read the book. Positive reviews can increase sales, increase visibility, grow an author’s newsletter, increase social media engagements, and much more. For example, HERE’S ANOTHER POSITIVE REVIEW I received by Paul McRae of Artcar Nation, a spectacular website dedicated to art cars. I didn’t pay for Paul’s glowing words, and I’m so grateful to him for the publicity. I wrote a fun blog about it, too.

Reader reviews help get the word out and can create a buzz about a particular book. They also give potential buyers an idea as to what the book is about, which in turn might generate sales. Reviews can influence contagious behavior. I learned in my college marketing classes that it’s psychological. When products appear to sell a lot, they go on to sell even more. People want to know why something is popular, and they’re often willing to buy it to find out.

There are also these mysterious processes that create suggestions on Amazon such as, “You might also enjoy this.†I’m still learning how these algorithms work. I’ve read that I need at least ten reviews on Amazon so that my book might pop up with “also bought†and “you might also like†phrases. At the time of writing this post, I have received 23 Amazon reviews in two months—all of which are positive. This brings up another issue: apparently it could look “fishy†if all my reviews have the highest five-star ratings. Readers might not trust the reviews if every single one is glowing, and I’ve heard it might help to have a few negative ones.  Well, please don’t go post an unenthusiastic review! I’m quite sure those will arrive organically over time, because no book is universally loved by everyone.

So sales are one thing, but there’s another reason why I might need favorable reviews from some respected groups like Kirkus and Publishers Weekly. I’m trying to submit my book for a few different publishing awards, and some of these contests require favorable reviews from specific key sources to even be considered. Many of these professional reviews cost money, however, and authors should cautiously weigh the cost vs. return on investment.

THE PROBLEM is obtaining enough non-paid reader reviews. I would never stoop so low as to pay for a reader review on Amazon or Goodreads; plus, it’s considered unethical, so don’t go down that path! Authors run the gamut from gently suggesting to outright begging everyone they know for reviews. It only takes a few minutes, but getting someone to actually sit down and write a review is not easy. I’m batting about 10:1. Meaning, for every ten people I’ve asked to write a review, I’ve gotten about one person to follow through. I’m not complaining; just stressing how hard it is to get book reviews. I don’t plead; I ask once and leave it at that. If you want to learn more, you can google “Why Book Reviews are Important,” and you will discover a wealth of information.

To those dedicated individuals who posted honest reviews about my book: Thank You! I sincerely appreciate the time it took for you to sit down and finish this task. I don’t take it for granted, and I am grateful to my two dozen or so reviewers (with that number growing, I hope). If you’re reading this blog and haven’t written a review yet, please do so. I know your time is valuable, but it matters so much!

In case you’re not sure, I’ll explain here, “How to Post a Review on Amazon.†It’s easy:

• log into your Amazon.com account as usual;
• in the search bar, type Arthur Zarr’s Amazing Art Car;
• click the book title to get onto my book page;
• scroll down to the Customer Reviews area;
• click the white rectangular box that says “Write a Customer Review;â€
• choose a number of stars, hopefully 4 or 5;
• begin writing your review in the available box;
• even a few positive words will help, it does not have to be long and complex;
• give your review a title in the next box;
• in the upper right corner of this page you can even change “Your Public Name;â€
• don’t forget to hit SUBMIT!

Thank you so much, and I hope you enjoy the attached book review by Lone Star Literary Life as much as I did!  Here’s another link for you to read the whole review.

Arthur Zarr is Born!

My first children’s book, Arthur Zarr’s Amazing Art Car, has arrived!

A few silly bumper stickers triggered the concept for my new picture book. Nothing big. Just a twinkling of an idea that started small but took flight. And for my book’s main character, Arthur Zarr, it all began with an acorn that fell from a tree.

The costs that my book project incurred started off small, too. However, the expenses quickly grew, and while I don’t want to discourage anyone from self-publishing, I’ll be frank. It’s expensive to develop a hardcover book with dust jacket, complete with hand-drawn illustrations and Smythe-sewn binding! But my goal was to create a professional-looking book—one that could hold its own next to those developed by big publishing houses. So, I had to be willing to make a financial investment. I’m glad I did. (Note: e-books and print-on-demand books are considerably less expensive, but I had other plans in mind).

After a long ride from Canada, the books arrived this week. Like any proud mother, I can only see perfection when I look at my new baby. It will soon launch on Amazon (today, I mailed cases of books to three different Amazon Fulfillment Centers!), as well as Barnes and Noble, independent bookstores, gift shops, schools, libraries, my website, etc. Give me a few days, and it will be available for purchase by next week.  (Update 2018: My book is selling well and still available on AMAZON!).

If you know what an art car is, I’m confident that you’ll enjoy Arthur Zarr’s story. And if you’ve never heard of art cars, you might like learning about this artistic expression. If you check out my picture book, I’d be so honored if you’d please post a review on Amazon. While you’re at it, how about “liking†my Arthur Zarr on Facebook at: https://www.facebook.com/ArthurZarrsAmazingArtCar

 

 

Am I a Legitimate Author?

“Can you help me get my book published?â€

If I had a dollar for every time I’ve been asked that question… it wouldn’t make me a millionaire, but I bet it would buy me a few tanks of gas. It’s funny, because a big-name publisher has not published my work. Nor a small publisher. Still though, it seems that some are noting my humble progress, and they’re asking how I’ve done it.

You’ve heard the well-known quote: “How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice.” Well, I’ve discovered that “getting my book published†and “getting on Amazon†takes a lot more than practice.

I have two books under my belt. The first—a historical nonfiction—was published in 2012, with a revision and second printing in 2015. Uniting Faith, Medicine and Healthcare: A 60-Year History of the Institute For Spirituality and Health at the Texas Medical Center was the result of a freelance writing job. A Houston non-profit organization, called the Institute for Spirituality and Health, hired me to conduct interviews, research their annals, and develop a cohesive, historical chronicle of their years from 1955 to 2015.

The Institute project was unique because (1) I was well paid to write the book, and (2) the Institute funded all production costs to publish it. So, from a financial standpoint, I didn’t have to front the required capital. I didn’t take on any risk, other than my reputation as a writer. Since we chose to self-publish, I was able to skip the process of finding an agent, editor, or publishing house. I understood the publication process, thanks to my former years as a journalist and public relations professional.

My second book—a children’s picture book—has been an altogether different endeavor. In January of 2014, I came home from carpooling my son to school with a book idea. I sat down at my computer and created Arthur Zarr’s Amazing Art Car. I wrote the first draft in one sitting that took up most of my day. I felt it was an original story, and, after some research, I discovered that it would be the first children’s picture book on the topic of art cars. This led me to various appointments where I discussed my idea with smart, creative people. I considered self-publishing, and most everyone I talked to encouraged me to move forward with this idea.

The problem was that I wanted to feel legitimate. To me, that meant finding a “real publisher†or an agent. I couldn’t shake the notion that I wouldn’t be taken seriously if I self-published. Anyone can self-publish a book, was the nagging thought in my head. I discovered a small publisher that accepted non-agented work, and I mailed my manuscript off. I waited. And waited. After two months, I emailed the editor there, and she surprised me by writing back, saying that she was eager to read my story and would soon get back to me. I waited some more. And waited.

“PLAN B†IS SOMETIMES BETTER THAN “PLAN Aâ€â€¦

I never heard from that small publishing house. Looking back, I’m glad they didn’t respond. Undeterred, the months I spent waiting on that publisher’s call gave me time to develop a new plan. Ten months had passed since writing that first draft of Arthur Zarr’s Amazing Art Car. By this time, I had revised it dozens of times. I felt even more attached to my character and the dream of seeing Arthur come to life. I hired a local children’s book illustrator, and the real work began.

My constant narrative of “anyone can self-publish a book†wasn’t true. Producing my picture book has been a daily job that has required thousands of hours of proofreading, researching, learning, creating business/marketing plans, conducting cost comparisons, etc. I studied the basics of web design, blogging, social media, and building an author platform.

Self-publishing is hard work that’s not for the faint of heart or for the faint of wallet. In addition to the costs incurred in publishing a book, I’ve also taken courses, attended conferences, joined organizations, listened to webinars, and bought numerous industry books. Producing a hardcover picture book complete with dust jacket is an expensive endeavor with no promise of reimbursement through possible sales.

DARE TO SHARE…

But something special happened to me during the process of creating and producing Arthur Zarr’s Amazing Art Car. I grew in terms of creativity, productivity, and confidence. I’m not sure how, but I whittled out time to write a middle grade book that is currently in the rewrite phase (and that I might produce next). I revised the non-fiction book for the Institute for Spirituality and Health, and I produced its second printing. I completed my thesis and earned a master’s degree. I served as a paid consultant on a book project for another non-profit Houston organization. I helped a new acquaintance self-publish her book of poetry called Conscious Transformations: Within Me, Within You (by Marla Maharaj, for sale on Amazon). I assisted my parents as they sold their home and moved into a new house. I was a friend, a mother, a stepmother, a daughter, a sister, and a wife.

At first, I was afraid to put my writing, my books, and my ideas out into the world with no assurance of acceptance or appreciation. But as the inspiring author Brené Brown says, I think I’m “daring greatly!†I feel like a legitimate author. I can’t wait to open that first case of books in two weeks. Loveable Arthur is almost here!

Cathey’s First Blog

Hi guys! I’m a big fan of actress Valerie Harper. Like so many teenage girls, I identified with Rhoda Morgenstern on the 1970s Mary Tyler Moore Show. I love something Valerie said once, “Don’t let your fear today rob you of a fun life.” Since Valerie’s been battling cancer for about five years, I figure she’s an expert at making each day count. That’s the kind of person I strive to be.

I write in a bright sunny office at my home here in Texas. My workspace features a large cork board that’s covered with inspirational notes and pictures. Pretty much anything that interests me goes on the board. On one scrap of torn paper, next to Valerie’s quote, I jotted down another phrase I like: “The ability to grow is directly related to the amount of insecurity you are able to take in your life.” I guess that means I need to do things that make me anxious! That’s how I approach my new writing career… It’s a little scary when I think about the possibility of failure, but that’s not going to stop me.

Be tenacious and determined!

Thanks for reading my first post. Hopefully I’ll get better as I go.